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RE: Propane Exchange
Thanks for the quick replies.
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Country Traveler
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05/15/12 04:44pm |
Tech Issues
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Propane Exchange
My 20 lb propane tanks have expired. Rather than buying new ones, I thought I might bring them to a propane exchange place to swap them out for good ones. I googled the issue to determine that most will take the expired tanks. I see some conflicting info regarding filling the tanks in the future. Some say you have to use the propane exchange service and some say you can go anywhere. I would go to my local filling station because I would get the full fillup rather than the 15 lbs from the exchange places.
Has anyone filled a tank they got from a propane exchange place at a regular filling station?
Thanks.
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Country Traveler
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05/15/12 04:08pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
Yes, I get it. Thank you. I was overzealous again. While thinking about the 2 hitch setups (new and old) I started thinking that we are returning the front to where it was to begin with on the new setup and without thinking it through started talking myself into it being the same as using airbags. I overlooked a major component so I do 100% agree that a weight distribution system is not anything near what airbags are even when using the WD system to return the front of the truck to unloaded height. End of story, embarrased to have suggested it.
Sidebar question: I do not have airbags and can't do my own test, but if someone were to use them to raise the back of the truck to level it would that in turn raise the front end even more or would the front end drop down on it's own in the process. If the weight on the canteliver does not change and you raise the back it should raise the front a fairly equal amount. Right?
Anyway, getting back to the 2 hitch setups, I'm curious at what point oversteer problems due to too much weight transferred forward becomes a problem. Again, a couple hundred pounds to me does not seem to be a lot. But if one were to push way too much forward by lowering the front suspension down onto the bumpstops and begin to unload the rear, obviously, that is a problem. I'm still guessing that that is the reason for the change in procedure. If they tell you to go to unloaded height, you can't screw it up. If they told you an inch down in the front is fine and your trucks bump stops are right there, you may overload the front and unload the back without really knowing and then have a problem.
I welcome as many coments as possible. I have to go to work now and will not be able to check back until Monday provided the hurricane does not wipe out power here on Long Island.
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Country Traveler
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08/25/11 12:34pm |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
It is the lever effect of the hitch being behind the axle that causes the hitch weight to remove weight from the the front axle. The change in stance is a result of the increased load on the rear axle and the decreased load on the front axle.
If you had the same hitch weight but move the hitch position to a point over or very slightly ahead of the rear axle (fifth wheel trailer), then no weight is removed from the front axle, due to no lever effect of the hitch on the rear of the truck. The stance still changes because the rear still squats but the front doesn't rise because no weight is removed from the front.
If the hitch position is moved further forward to a point significantly ahead of the rear axle, then both axles share the load and both ends of the truck squat by some amount. Ah, that's what I was missing. I did not account for the lever behind the rear wheels and it's affects. Thank you.
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Country Traveler
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08/25/11 09:11am |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
Yes, I understand, but by not putting as much tension on the bars (not lifting as much), the weight distribution becomes less, therefore less or maybe a negligible amount of weight goes back to the trailer wheels. Also, if a truck unhitched has a certain weight on the front axle, it has a certain height with respect to that weight. This weight corresponds to the stance of the truck. Load always goes straight down. Now when we hitch up without weight distribution, the back of the truck goes down, the front up because the stance of the truck changes (no weight actually removed from front end, only transferred to rear because of the angle of the truck. When weight distribution is added the back of the truck is lifted so front will go back down (or front forced downward causing rear to rise) until you reach the unhitched height. Therefore, the load lost due to stance is replaced by a combination of the original load (engine. suspension, etc.) and the tongue weight because the stance of the truck is now different and the rear of the truck is down lower. The net equals zero load change to the front axle. The hitch weight that is moved forward when WD is added equals the weight of the trucks front end transferred to the rear by the stance with a small amount of weight transferred to the trailer wheels. Air bags would lift the back up to level and the weight over the front wheels will return to the front and the hitch weight will be on the rear axle. Weight wise, its the same minus the small amount back to the trailer wheels if using weight distribution.
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Country Traveler
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08/25/11 08:45am |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
I don't know why it changed the way it handled either, but it did. I know some people do all of the modifications to the suspension to improve handling and I hear it does improve it, but cannot comment on how improved it is because I have not done it. I do agree the suspension is softer than the F250/350 but I am pretty sure it is stiffer than an F150, so I wouldn't agree that it is the worst suspension and in desperate need of overhall. I could agree that the improvements would probably help the lower payload capacity, but all SUV's have a payload issue. I think any suspension on any truck can be improved. Should also consider the fact that these modifications to the suspension mask the problem of having an improperly loaded tow vehicle (ie-which one is worse? - having a higher loaded front axle for a smooth ride or a stiffer rear suspension to correct a loading problem)
Getting back to the hitch setup, lets say it is about 400 lbs transferred to the front. If we took the 400 lbs away to return it to unhitched height again and lets say the wife and I were real burly, we could be putting the 400 lbs right back on it and then the front could be down an inch again, just from the passengers. I guess I am just not sold on numbers down to the pound because there are so many variables.
The weight distribution hitch was originally designed to distibute weight from the back of the truck to the front of the truck and back to the trailer. Essentially this is done when the back of the truck is lifted up with the tension in the bars. Now if we are only using the WD system to return the weight to the front that was there without adding any more weight, we are in essence discontinueing the need for the weight distribution system. All the weight from the hitch is still on the rear axle. All you really need now is air bags to pump up and level the truck. By leveling the truck, the front would likely return to its unhitched height because the normal load from the truck would be displaced where it was before being hitched.
So in my mind, you no longer have weight distribution bars because you are not distributing tongue weight anymore. They should just be called weight returning bars which fall into a category of competition to air bags.
I know some hitches have a sticker max weight without weight distribution, but I believe the reason for the weight distribution over that weight is to transfer weight to the front or raise the back of the truck so the bumper is not on the ground. I don't think it has much to do with the bolts failing as there are more stresses on the hitch from applying the WD to it.
Point to ponder: Sometimes, you have to wonder which theory came first. Did motor companies and hitch companies originally say we need to lift the back of the truck up to make it level and then someone came up with the lever system and called it a weight distribution system because when it was applied it distibuted weight or did they say we need to distribute weight and the lever system will do that for us so lets design what we know of today as a weight distribution system.
If the motor companies and hitch companies rethink how they want you to apply your weight distribution hitch, they should rethink the entire setup and need all together for it if essentially the end result is to still have the weight of the tongue on the rear axle. Maybe the sticker should read 500 lbs max tongue weight unless WD or air bags are added.
Obviously, I did not get into sway control as that is integral to some WD systems, but that is anothe topic.
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Country Traveler
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08/25/11 06:55am |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
Barney, thanks for leaving the thread open.
Thanks 67Airstreamer - You summed it up.
Ron, You took me by surprise, but I understand you probably meant nothing by it and hopefully you will post here.
lingering question is as follows:
Why is it that my truck handled so horribly when set up to the new procedure and then when set up to the old procedure it handles great. Obviously, distributing weight to the front and getting a level truck was the difference. We are only talking about 200 lbs or so, so I think it has nothing to do with the weight on the rear axle and more to do with the stance of the truck. I was being sarcastic above about the gas tank but it is true what I said. Right there was another differential of about 300 lbs. I noticed no difference between towing with full or empty fuel tank.
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Country Traveler
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08/24/11 11:04am |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
If some gets their feeling hurt by being wrong, then the best advice is either be an expert on what you are saying or DON'T POST..
Bob, who is wrong here!!!!! I don't think anyones feelings are hurt because Ron proved them wrong. Because you agree with Ron, does not mean other opinions are wrong. What you are saying here is that if you disagree with Ron, then don't post. This again is exactly what I said in the response above.
The motor companies and hitch companies changed their methodology for giving directions on how to set up hitches. My guess is that they are trying something else because people don't typically get it right to old way. Maybe some data exists somewhere which suggests people overload their front axle too much. I don't think it means the old way is wrong. It's just a new different way. I and others are allowed to like the old way more and still consider the new way.
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Country Traveler
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08/24/11 07:26am |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
I'm not going anywhere. I've read other posts where Ron challenges what other posters write to push his opinion/agenda. I was just taken back when he challenged mine (or one that I agreed with) in this thread. I would never think to look back at posts from others to find something to try to discredit something they wrote. I have no reason to lie or make something up. I know Ron has a lot to offer, but I think those who ask should be able to hear other peoples ideas/opinions without him challenging them every time. It definitely causes a thread to go off topic, like this. When it happens, people who disagree in general decide not to post because they do not want to be singled out and/or attacked. This gives the original poster the opinion that his methodology is the "right" or only answer.
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Country Traveler
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08/24/11 07:07am |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
---Technically, John ignored the directions to get a ride quality and stability he determined he could take advantage of. It just so happens he is within the tolerance of the new setup procedure but a year or so ago he was not.John stated his front end was less than the unhitched load by "100# maybe a hair more".
With an F-350, being 100# light would correspond to a "rise" of less than 1/4".
The "old" Ford WD adjustment specs state the front end should be returned to "within 1/2” (13 mm) of the reference point". John did not exceed the tolerance stated in the specs.
Ron OK Ron, you win. Lets also hope nobody brings a friend or someone decides not to come on the trip. That will really screw things up. This can get out of hand. My gas tank holds 44 gallons and is located in the back. I probably should adjust the hitch as I use the fuel.
This is a forum where people should be able to freely give advice or opinions. It is a turnoff when someone disagrees with an opinion and even searches back at old posts to find items to attempt to discredit an opinion or comment by another member. I for one cannot and will not compete on this level. I don't have a recognizable name on the forum because I don't have the ability to post daily or hourly for that matter. Now I like many of the others who get caught up like this will not bother to post opinions anymore. Kind of takes the fun out of it. Don't you think.
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Country Traveler
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08/23/11 03:58pm |
Towing
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RE: Bent Hitch?
You will need to adjust your WDH with that new hitch. It won't flex like the old one and you will be putting too much tilt on the head without changing it.
You mean adjust the height of the ball? That is possible too. The hitch head is what was being referred to. Because the new receiver will not flex like the old, the spring bars may become out of adjustment.
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Country Traveler
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08/23/11 03:52pm |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
If it helps anybody, I misread my instructions for my hitch. I thought it said that there were 15 washer. There is actually a max of 7.
15 is the part number :)
(no I didn't tow it like that!)
Thanks! Who are you!!!!:). Oh yeh, the original poster.
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Country Traveler
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08/23/11 03:03pm |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
---So many want a level truck and if they follow these directions, they all go out and buy air bags and upgrade springs, etc. to tow travel trailers with level trucks.:) - This is a joke, but then again maybe it's true.IMO, if people feel a need to tow travel trailers with "level trucks" -- that's exactly what they should do.
IMO, it's much more prudent to "level" the TV using air bags or something similar than it is to "level" by adding load to the front axle to force the front end down below the unhitched height.
Ron, in my case, I did not do it to get a level truck. I did it to get a good ride with stability. If this was a year ago or so, this would be perfectly acceptable but now that the hitch and truck manufacturers are changing their "stance" (there is that pun again:), it is as if I am a danger to the world. I agree with you that it should not be done to level the truck because there is a good chance the front end will go down to the bump stops and the rear will get raised and then the front end becomes overloaded. Again, I think this is why the manufacturers changed their "stance".
OTOH, John Barca, who is very knowledgeable regarding WD matters, prefers to have the rear of his F-350 well below its unhitched height when towing. He intentionally keeps his front axle slightly lighter than unhitched. His reasoning is explained in this post.
This also goes to show you that everything is dependent of the truck trailer combination. If John's tongue weight was less, he would have to let the front end up higher and if it was more, he would have more weight up front. Technically, John ignored the directions to get a ride quality and stability he determined he could take advantage of. It just so happens he is within the tolerance of the new setup procedure but a year or so ago he was not.
Ron
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Country Traveler
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08/23/11 03:02pm |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
OK, now that I have read the whole thread, I'll give another opinion on why I think both Ford and Equal-i-zer have changed their stance on front end loading. Since probably less than 1% of travel trailer owners actually go out and get axle and loading weights, I think they found that many were transferring too much from the rear to the front, thereby unloading (so to speak) the rear of the truck when hitched up. Their response it that you simply bring the front to unloaded height. If you follow that logic, you will not transfer too much weight to the front.
Sometimes, decisions are not made based on engineering or science. Sometimes you have to make decisions to account for basic human ignorance which may be the case here.I can go along with that as the real reason behind the change. Sounds 'politically correct' enough for this day and age to me. It's also good for the economy. So many want a level truck and if they follow these directions, they all go out and buy air bags and upgrade springs, etc. to tow travel trailers with level trucks.:) - This is a joke, but then again maybe it's true.
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Country Traveler
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08/23/11 08:40am |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
Ron,
This only for discussion, as my setup is correct and functioning well. Ford and Equilizer both specify that half of the front end rise should be eliminated, but Toyota still states(2011) to return the front to the unhitched height. What would be the prudent thing to do when there are differing specifications, the truck or the hitchmanufacturer?Bob, I know you directed your question to Ron, but this is exactly my point. All this is simply a guide, so you need to try variations and combinations of both. I would never sacrifice a ride with good handling and stability to obtain compliance with "generic" numbers and directions. But that is me.
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Country Traveler
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08/23/11 08:28am |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
Country Traveler,
It is correct that Ford and Equal-i-zer have changed their stance (good pun).
For the F-Series trucks, beginning in 2011, Ford is specifying:
Weight-distributing hitch
When hooking-up a trailer using a weight-distributing hitch, always use the following procedure:
1. Park the vehicle (without the trailer) on a level surface.
2. Measure the height of the top of the front wheel opening on thefender, this is H1.
3. Attach the trailer to the vehicle without the weight distributing bars connected.
4. Measure the height of the top of the front wheel opening on the fender a second time, this is H2.
5. Install and adjust the tension in the weight distributing bars so that the height of the front fender is approximately halfway between H1 and H2.
6. Check that the trailer is level. If not level, adjust the ball height accordingly and repeat Steps 3–6.
Please note the phrase, approximately halfway between H1 and H2, in step 5. For the F-Series trucks, Ford no longer is specifying that the front end should be returned to the unhitched height.
Equal-i-zer now specifies that at least 50% of the front end rise should be eliminated.
RonRon, it is this procedure that actually made me reduce from the Equal-i-zer recomendation of 5 washers for the SUV to 4 washers on my original setup. I was trying to make both companies happy by going with the happy medium. The front end height was not changed between 4 and 5 washers so I went with the 4.
I understand everything you are saying, and it all makes good engineering sense, but it did not work for my setup.
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Country Traveler
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08/23/11 08:10am |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
---I recently setup my unmodified suspension Ford Excursion to tow Jayco 32BHDS using a 1400/14,000 lb Equal-i-zer WD system. I followed the directions by returning the front to normal height and not worrying too much about the rear squat. Well this gave me the worst ride ever. There was excessive floating of the rear of the truck and handling was awfull. I added washers to lift the back of the truck up and this lowered the front to about 1 inch below unloaded height. The difference was huge. This change made it feel like the trailer was not there ---.Three months ago, you reported in this post:
"---I tow a Jayco 32BHDS which probably has a tongue weight of about 1200-1250 lbs. The rear squats about 1-1.5 inches and the front is at unloaded height. I now use an Equal-i-zer hitch with 1400 lb bars. There are no modifications or addons to either truck. In fact, the 2000 does not have a rear sway bar. I think it tows just fine. --- Like I said, I only have about 1 inch maybe 1 1/2 inches squat in the rear. I have many kids and all their stuff packed in. I think it tows great."
What caused the Excursion to go from "tows great" to giving you the "worst ride ever"?
When you lower the front to 1" below unhitched, where is the rear relative to its unhitched height?
RonThis is why I am more of a reader than a poster here. I'm not into cyber arguements. Like I said, I set it up according to the directions. This in fact returned the front to unloaded height. I was probably overzealous about the handling of the new hitch but only tested it out around town to a local campground about 15 miles away and on side roads. I then posted my results as stated. Once on the highway for a trip at speeds of 60-70mph, it handled horribly and I adjusted it by adding a washer. It handled much better. Once at the destination, I added another washer for a total of 6 now. It rides perfect at this setting. Mt trip to Florida was with 6 washer, front squat about an inch and rear squat about the same 1-1/2 inches. sorry I did not update an old post.
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Country Traveler
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08/23/11 07:59am |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
I'm guessing that in spite of the MANY threads on WD setup on multiple forums, and the VERY well written sticky in the towing section, there are a lot of people out there towing that are happy with their rig because it "looks" right and is "comfortable", and have never taken a measurment of their before and after fender heights.
This is true, but if it looks and feels right, success!!!!, but some don't look and feel right - that is where the problem lies because they don't try to fix it, they just live with it.
If your truck were to give you as comfortable ride with the trailer hitched as it does without, that in itself should throw up a big flag,
Why?
and the same if the rear end was the same height before and after.
This is completely dependent on the truck being used to tow the trailer, but if your rear end height is the same, it could be a red flag indicating that too much weight is being transferred forward.
A little reading would probably eliminate a lot of the stories we here on here about bent brackets and damaged cams.
Typically, problems like this happen and people look to the forum to find out why, so that will never go away. You are right though, the towing section would be quite boring if the reese dual cam system did not exist.:):)
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Country Traveler
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08/23/11 07:47am |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
My Trunnion Valley Hitch head was almost vertical with no hitch head tilt towards the trailer. I read the instructions for the hitch and have read a lot of information on line that stated there needs to be a pretty good hitch head angle.
I am trying to set a baseline to reset my hitch for my truck and trailer. I realized that everything wasn't tight and finally resolved that I would take the hitch apart and set it correctly.
I realize that this angle may be too extreme but I wanted to get an opinion. Is this too much of a hitch head angle?
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj109/jerem0621/hitchangle.jpg height=440 width=440
Thanks!I'm not too familiar with your hitch, but the directions may give you a baseline on hitch angle to start. My equal-i-zer directions say to start with 4 washers for a pickup truck and 5 for an SUV. I ended up with 6 for an SUV. For you, I belive you want 5 chain links under tension, so you set the number of washers to get the squat and ride you are comfortable with and then raise or lower the hitch head on the shank until the trailer is about level.
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Country Traveler
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08/23/11 07:12am |
Towing
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RE: Hitch Angle Question
OK, now that I have read the whole thread, I'll give another opinion on why I think both Ford and Equal-i-zer have changed their stance on front end loading. Since probably less than 1% of travel trailer owners actually go out and get axle and loading weights, I think they found that many were transferring too much from the rear to the front, thereby unloading (so to speak) the rear of the truck when hitched up. Their response it that you simply bring the front to unloaded height. If you follow that logic, you will not transfer too much weight to the front.
Sometimes, decisions are not made based on engineering or science. Sometimes you have to make decisions to account for basic human ignorance which may be the case here.
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Country Traveler
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08/23/11 06:50am |
Towing
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