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RE: Would you tow with this veichle?
:R :R :R :R and one final :R
I suppose "these guys" also include the engineers who designed & built the vehicles, the same ones that rated the van @ 3500lb and the Liberty @ 5000lb.If you think engineers set the tow ratings, then here's a few rollie eyes for you! :R :R :R :R and one final :R
Engineers may set the DESIGN LIMITS of a vehicle or a component. In the real world the marketing department decides what they want to advertise as a tow rating, and the legal and warranty departments make sure there is enough profit margin and small print to stand behind the number.
Cars and minivans stopped being tested for real towing ability 20 years ago, when car-makers figured out they could boost high-profit truck sales by pushing car buyers who might need to tow into a truck they really didn't need.
In today's world car-makers are comfortable sticking with ratings well under actual capabilities for cars and minivans because they can skip most of the testing to prove it every time a model is released to the public.
Trucks on the other hand are constantly being re-rated in the competitive market. Because of the constantly changing ratings, these vehicles are tested exhaustively. The car-makers are putting their necks out a lot further when they publish these ratings, and a lot more small print and profit margin is ensured to cover the bet.
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Caddywhompus
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05/17/12 08:18am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Would you tow with this veichle?
Choosing a vehicle by tow rating is the same as letting the auto-makers marketing department make your decision.
The liberty has a higher tow rating not because it's a better tow vehicle (that's a laugh), but because it sells in the SUV segment of the market, and must be competitive.
The minivan has a 3500 tow rating because it sells in the minivan market, and somewhere a long time back someone decided that magically every minivan every made has exactly the same towing capability. That means a 1984 Dodge Caravan with a 2.6 liter 4 cylinder engine, 14" tires and K-car brakes somehow has the same towing ability as Toyota Sienna with a 5-speed transmission and 250+ HP.
The point I am trying to make is that the tow ratings are nothing more than a number printed in a brochure. They do very little to actually represent towing ability or performance in the real world. There are plenty of examples (such as yours) of one vehicle having a higher rating than another, and the lower-rated vehicle doing the better job.
And you are right about one thing, the transmission in the minivan would have been the weak link. However with some care and maintenance they can hold up just fine. Liberties on the other hand have terrible reliability ratings, so though the transmission may hold up better, be prepared to make friends with your service man.
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Caddywhompus
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05/17/12 08:10am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Would you tow with this veichle?
Ironically, you would have been far better off spending some money upgrading the minivan. The Liberty has less power, less torque, bigger tires, worse suspension, worse brakes and a lot less stability. You fell for the classic mis-truth, and these guys on the forum telling you the Jeep will be better than the minivan are doing you no favors. Just because it's an SUV, and designed to do well off-road, does NOT MAKE IT A TOW VEHICLE.
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Caddywhompus
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05/10/12 07:19pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Fords "Unconventional" tow vehicle
For those that question the braking performance of towing with a car:
A high-performance vehicle like a Taurus SHO has massively huge brakes, 4-wheel disk with multiple piston calipers all around. In addition, you have ABS and electronic brakeforce distribution to assure the tire with the most stopping power gets the most braking force at all times.
Andy tests the braking performance of all these combos, and in just about every case the high-performance sedan will out-stop a truck towing the same trailer EVERY TIME. I've seen the videos, and the results for proof. In some cases, (I remember reading this about the 300C Hemi) the car with trailer stops shorter than the F-350 does EMPTY.
People would assume a minivan/car would have smaller, weaker brakes than a pickup truck. In my own experience, this is simply not true. The brakes on my Freestar are in fact slightly larger than the brakes on my father-in-laws Silverado 1500 WITH TOWING PACKAGE. Not surprisingly, the stopping performance of out minivan is substantially better, towing or not, than his pickup truck.
So then the question of course has to be answered, why do large pickups have such heavy brakes if they don't stop a trailer? I'm glad you asked. Two reasons in fact: The first reason is SERVICE LIFE. Stop a runaway trailer 5-10 times with a SHO, and you can just about guarantee a brake job will be needed. On an F-350, you can pretty much over-heat the brakes all day long and continue to use them. The second reason is much simpler; brakes are designed to stop a vehicles GVWR, so naturally a pickup truck with a 9,000 pound GVWR is going to have larger brakes than a minivan with a 5,800 pound GVWR. In either case, it must be understood than no vehicle, pickups included, is designed to stop a trailer without brakes. You will find this warning in every towing guide from every manufacturer, period. There is no logic to the assumption that increasing the size and weight of the tow vehicle will improve it's stopping power. In fact, simple physics will tell you otherwise. The greater the mass, the greater the inertia, the more energy will be required to stop it. IN other words, pickups have large brakes, because they themselves weight alot!
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Caddywhompus
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03/16/12 02:47pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Fords "Unconventional" tow vehicle
It never ceases to amaze me how close-minded some people can be. Tell them there might be a better way, and they will fight you tooth and nail, call names and smear mud everywhere they can. All without even a basis of comparison (any of you ever towed with the new SHO?)
Tow ratings are NOT THE END ALL solution to choosing a tow vehicle, and anyone who says otherwise is really the dangerous one. I can list many examples of tow vehicle that are over-rated, and as many that are under-rated. Manufacturers use these numbers to drive sales and manipulate buyers into bigger, heavier tow vehicles than they really needed.
I've dealt with Andy several times, and he was the one who tipped me off on the Freestar as our tow vehicle. He explained how to set it up correctly, how to tune the hitch for best performance, and how to modify the van to improve longevity. Today I have this van with 140k miles sitting in my driveway, running just as good as the day we bought it, and every time I hitch up our trailer I'm technically overloaded (by the 3500 tow rating, not by GCWR or GVWR). This vehicle consistently out-tows, outlasts and out performs much larger tow vehicles. Just the other day I was helping a friend move, and he couldn't help but comment how much better my minivan towed the moving trailer than his 4.7 liter Jeep Cherokee (with twice the tow rating).
People need to take a moment, and really think about these things before commenting sometimes. A vehicle like the SHO is built extremely rigid, with a vastly superior suspension and braking system. Add in the power of the EcoBoost, the gearing of the new 6-speed transmission, and the comfort of a full-size sedan and you have a vehicle that I (for one) would much rather sit in while driving around the country.
At no point, no even once, would I ever consider the things Andy does dangerous. He's the first to tell you, don't try this at home. He knows exactly what he is doing, has the experience and the shop to make the changes, and TESTS EVERY ONE of his combinations publicly before he promotes it. At any time one of you could stop in for a visit, and drive anyone of those combos. And let me tell you, take a 10 mile lap with a CanAm combo, and you'll be eating most of your words.
We thought about trading our van in recently for a Flex. In the end I decided against it, partly because the minivan still meets and exceeds every expectation I set for it, and STILL gets better empty mileage than most of the new replacement candidates. I can't imagine a better endorsement, seeing as how I bought this vehicle new based almost entirely on the faith I had in Andy's advice.
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Caddywhompus
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03/13/12 03:49pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Honda Odyssey and Jayco pup
That was me that traded in our 2003 Honda Odyssey that could tow 3500 lbs with the tow kit for the Pilot which is 4x4 and can tow 4500. I'm trying to figure out why you laughed at that?? We got extra piece of mind, after purchasing a much larger popup then our original one??Because the Minivan and the Pilot are mechanically identical, with the exception of a rear axle to add 4x4 to the Pilot. The 4x4 only adds weight, and does nothing to improve towing. However the shorter wheelbase, higher center of gravity and off-road suspension and tires all negatively affect towing stability.
On other words, Honda rates the Pilot slightly higher than the minivan as a sales and marketing ploy, yet the real-world facts show the minivan is at least equally-capable, possibly the better choice.
That's why I laughed at your "upgrade", which amounted to nothing more than a little piece of mind because some number printed on some paper looked higher than some other number.
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Caddywhompus
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01/30/12 12:49pm |
Folding Trailers
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RE: Honda Odyssey and Jayco pup
GVW (or more commonly referred to as GVWR)Had to correct this, because it's too commonly repeated.
GVWR is a rating; it stands for Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. It is a specification from the manufacturer stating the maximum weight a vehicle (or trailer) can be.
GVW is a measurement; it stands for Gross Vehicle Weight, nothing more. It is the number you would see on a scale if you weighed a vehicle (or trailer).
And for clarity, consider the GVW as UVW (unloaded vehicle weight) + gear and meat (people). It's the weight you intend on rolling down the freeway at.
They are not the same, nor are the terms interchangeable. In fact, the difference between GVWR and GVW is what makes a vehicle over/under weight. A vehicle who's GVW exceeds it's GVWR is OVERWEIGHT. A vehicle who's GVW is under it's GVWR still has payload available.
And for the record, most mini-vans make better tow vehicles than most mid-size or smaller SUVs, and in some cases 1/2 ton trucks. I laugh at the post about the guy who traded his Oddy in for a Pilot. All he gained was extra capacity on paper, everything under the sheetmetal is the same. Besides, POWER is the least important factor in towing, even if it is the most fun to talk about. What really matters is control and braking, which relate to safety. Power only decides how fast you can pull, handling and braking decide if you live when the situation goes sour. So if you want to pull a heavy popup with a minivan, focus on trailer brakes and suspension upgrades. Power-wise you will be fine by just learning to slow down and let the engine and gears do their job.
-Jimmy
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Caddywhompus
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01/13/12 03:31pm |
Folding Trailers
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RE: does a 2000 chevy have 7 way wiring?
Ford supplies all their trucks (except maybe the ranger) with the brake controller connector, trailer tow package or not. I kind of assumed Chevy did the same thing, but it appears I was wrong. Oh well!Well they must have forgot when they built my former 1990 Bronco. I wired that truck from the battery all the way to the bumper to to have a 7-pin wiring harness. The only thing I could get to save time was a T-connector to give me basic lighting in the form of a flat-4.
And my minivan was pre-wired for trailer lights only (kit needed from Ford dealer to complete). The brakes and charging circuits were done by myself.
I don't think there's anything wrong with adding one's own wiring to a vehicle for towing (assuming they know how). It wasn't that long ago that EVERY car needed to be wired from scratch, and people got real good at it. Nowadays if they can't buy it as part of a towing package, they don't bother. But I still do.
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Caddywhompus
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11/15/11 09:49am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: does a 2000 chevy have 7 way wiring?
I have always installed my own towing packages, and did one on an Astro van that was nearly the same as your 1/2 ton Chevy pickup. That's what you'll have to do here as well.
When I did my Astro van, I added two 12v lines that went straight to the battery. Both lines passed through 12v lighting relays (30a) that were only closed when the ignition was on (to prevent battery drain). One line was for the electric brakes. It was protected by a self-re-setting 20A circuit breaker. The other line was the charge line for the trailer's battery, and it passed through a 30A inline fuse. Both these wires were 10 Gauge, although I think 12 would work as well.
The brake feed will have to pass through a grommet in the firewall, and will connect to the power wire on your brake controller. The output from the brake controller will go back through the grommet in the firewall, and together with the charge line will run to the rear of the truck, safely routed obviously.
When we get to the back of the truck, we'll create a new ground point. Drill and tap into the frame, and be sure to sand around the hole. Attach a ring terminal to another 10 gauge wire, and use a star-washer underneath it when you bolt it to the ground hole you just created. I cover the bolted connection with liquid electrical tape once I know I have a good ground.
The 3 new wires (ground, brake and charge) will all merge with your lighting wires (LT-Stop, RT-Stop and taillights). (Note: Do not use the ground wire included with the lighting wires, use the one you just created) The 7th wire is for backup lights, and is optional. All these wires will get wired into the back of the 7-pin female receptacle that you will be mounting up under the bumper. Once this is done you are ready for 7-pin trailer towing.
As for towing performance, don't pay much attention to the negative posts above. If an Astro van with a 4.3 liter can pull a 20' travel trailer for 3 seasons reasonably well, there is no reason in the world a pickup truck can't pull a popup camper with the same engine and transmission.
I hope this helps.
-Jimmy
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Caddywhompus
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11/07/11 12:46pm |
Tow Vehicles
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